Evan Flory-Barnes is an artist, musician and philosopher who joins Angela to discuss his journey through the pain and suffering of a broken relationship, the loss of friends and a willingness to make the pursuit of truth and attaining individual sovereignty his greatest goal. This interview was originally released as The Deepening Place Podcast, E27.
Transcript
Angela Abide:
Hey. I’m glad you’re here. In the last episode, I spoke with Corey Castillo about the father energy and the pursuit of an absolute truth that you’re willing to look for despite the suffering that you might endure along the way. And it made me think of an interview that I had done with Evan Flory-Barnes back in February for ‘The Deepening Place’ podcast. Evan tells the story of yearning to be an authentic, individually sovereign person and the journey that he’s been on to get there. He is an artist, a musician, a philosopher. And his story is really inspiring because he stood his ground. He used the tools that he had acquired through doing some inner work. And he allowed himself to be transformed by that pursuit of an absolute truth. I think a willingness to see, to put your beliefs on the altar and have them be consumed by fire is painful. And losing people in that pursuit is painful. But in rising from the ashes, you’ll know you’re free. The truth will set you free. And that freedom is priceless.
Angela Abide:
Hi, Evan.
Evan Flory-Barnes:
Hello. How are you, Angela?
Angela Abide:
I’m great. I’m really happy to talk to you. I’m really intrigued by your content on Instagram. Just to start off, could you tell us about who you are and what your passions are?
Evan Flory-Barnes:
Yes. I’m Evan Flory- Barnes. I live in Seattle, Washington. I’m a musician. I play both bass guitar and upright bass. I sing, write songs and orchestrate. I’ve been involved in the arts and music across the board for the last 20 odd years or so. But my interests are also personal expression, self-expression, individual sovereignty and that relationship to creativity, art and being. I’ve also been looking into just the way human beings interact, relate and looking at the things that obstruct that and get in the way. I think also for a long time, I’ve been into various forms of philosophy, psychology, spirituality. And in a way developing and honing my own voice there as well as coming up with a distinct way to express it as a lot of changes have happened.
Angela Abide:
When you’re talking about individual sovereignty, I wondered could you say a little bit more about that?
Evan Flory-Barnes:
Yeah. Over the last four years, I had a drastic shift of my life, my community and relationships that I’ve been working in the Seattle art and music scene and playing elsewhere getting around for a long time. And I had an ending of a relationship with someone that was in my community. It turned out to be this insult to injury. Breakups are hard as they are. But when someone adds a smear campaign, blocks you and is telling lies about that, it’s like what I went through was a shattering of all these different things I thought and believed. And then I had these recognitions. Because I’ve always been into some form of reflection, meditation and inner work for a long time. But I started therapy right before this breakup. Because I started to recognize, what you can call, co-dependency. You can call it unhealthy obsession with others to the point where you’re abandoning yourself. And so, I started to recognize that theme. And that insult to injury breakup put that theme in my life, in my face so I could not ignore it anymore. And so, that as a process broke all these different things about what I thought, what I believed and I started to dive in individual sovereignty and what that truly means on so many levels. I think so much of what has been shaped, what I think about so many things, has to do with recognizing abuses that I was bypassing as just, oh, that’s normal. I think in individual sovereignty, just recognizing that, to start to check into the things, like how you relate to others, what you allow and what you allow into your life. You start to develop boundaries. I’ve also been really into this relationship with narcissistic abuse recovery, co-dependency. And when I started to just break all that stuff down, it also started to shift into this cultural, political awareness of recognizing a certain level of things. Almost like a collective narcissistic, co-dependent relationship and starting to see that in life. So, I started to define and really claim for myself what was important to me at a deeper level. Because on some levels, I feel like I was doing this at 18,19, all through my 20s. And then there was something that happened in another relationship that pushed on these buttons, that put future relationship just in my face. And so, I think the freedom to be oneself freely in all ways, it can be powerful. But can also be with flaws. It’s just the freedom to be oneself in an environment and to claim oneself, to claim responsibility for one’s actions, one’s feelings and one’s choices. Self- ownership is another term. But it’s just this idea of rooting more in oneself. Like I was so hyper concerned with what others think or how others are going to feel. Even the detriment to oneself. I think I’ve noticed this rise of a collective co-dependency that is getting taken advantage of and going through all the things I went through in personal relationships. I see it right away.
Angela Abide:
One thing about individual sovereignty and I don’t hear a lot of people talking about it. That’s why I think it just made me curious. That was one of the ideas when this nation was founded. We’re gonna give you all these freedoms. But you have to
maintain your individual sovereignty and your ability to self-govern so that you can hold on to them. And it always goes back to the idea like in the bible. The word becomes flesh. It’s almost like our job is to allow our flesh to become the word. When you go down and discover your true self, you’re rising from the ashes and then you have this thing to offer. You rise up and that’s your truth. I’m seeing some stuff on your writing like you’re nervous as I am. And our ability to express that is being threatened.
Evan Flory-Barnes:
Absolutely.
Angela Abide:
You do all this work. you go through all this. You have something that’s real and true. Then you come up to express it and to give this contribution to the world. And now they’re going to say, “Oh, that’s not politically correct.”
Evan Flory-Barnes:
A moment where I tested my sovereignty, because it’s what I started to discover as I spent time with my therapist and started just gaining my sense of self is, you start to notice as you do that work. Certain relationships and interactions stop feeling the same. You start to notice, oh, this doesn’t quite work anymore. I was in this band for a long time. I was finding myself as I was getting in touch with something essential and it not being satisfactory anymore for a number of reasons. I just kept getting these red flags and warning signs. Then the year 2017 hit and I started to gain this itself and I decided to do this show at a theater here in town called On the Boards. It’s a show called ‘On Loving the Muse and Family’. It’s kind of like combining and taking the old late 1950s, early 1960s variety show but using examples of my own stories about life, creativity and relationships. And it was at this theater called On the Boards, Seattle. So, I spent pretty much the whole year getting ready for it and it was this big. I had a 50-piece orchestra, I had a band called the ‘True Loves’. It was my personal philosophy, my relational philosophy, my spiritual philosophy and my love of music as a composer as a bassist, all out on stage. I started to also explore and reclaim sketch comedy. I used to do sketch comedy in college. So, there’s that aspect of theater. So, all 2017 I was getting ready to do that show. And then in 2018, almost three years ago to the day, I put the show up. And I did a song in a Dean Martin style, I did a song in a Nat King Cole type of style. I wrote two country songs. One was a country breakup song. The other one was a song I wrote in the beginning sweet time of the relationship with the person that did the smear campaign. It was really sweet because I went all out. Because it’s all this orchestral music. But then for the country music, it strips down to the Lap steel, acoustic guitar, singing backups, a guy on the fiddle, not playing upright bass and singing. And it creates this beautiful moment. And so, we do the show. We did four nights. It’s sold out every night. It was
a beautiful experience. It was like one of those moments where this is what I envisioned and it’s happening. And then two days or a day after the show, I get this text from a guy who attends the show. He’s like, “Catching any flack, bro?” I’m like, “What?” Mind you, the day before, people said, “I haven’t cried like that in a long time.” I was hearing stories about people being touched, moved, especially a lot of men being moved. There’s something I tapped into about the masculine heart. Because I heard a lot of stories about all kinds of people being impacted and moved but particularly men.
Angela Abide:
It was everything that you had imagined it would be. And you were getting all kinds of feedback from people who said it really deeply touched them, especially men. And then you get a random text from someone wondering if you’d caught any flack about it.
Evan Flory-Barnes:
Yeah. I was like, what? And then I go to Facebook and this person who I had to break up with about two years earlier, talking about the show is about her and demeans her. It has nothing to do with her. That song hints at things. But I mean, creative license. People write songs about people who were dear for the longest time. I watched people that were my friends. People talk to me as if they hadn’t known me for the past 15 years. And I saw the makings of the mind virus. It was startling. What was being said and what was being done, tested my ground. And I said, no. I know what this works about. I know the emotional work. I know the artistic work. I know all the things. I know my therapy bills. I know what I put into this work. And you’re not gonna tell me about what it means. Sorry. I got to experience it first- hand.
Angela Abide:
You mentioned the mind virus. And you say an environment of dependency, unhealthy self-obsession and cognitive dissonance. You also mentioned outrage addiction and media distortion. And it just made me think that, wow. Something must have really happened to give you this insight. And so, it’s interesting to hear you say that story that it happened to you.
Evan Flory-Barnes:
It’s so interesting because it happened with the thing dearest to me which is my music and my work. And I think what that did again is, this time instead of sitting in the slow tail spin where everything slowed down in one way, I felt like I stood my ground. I felt like all the tools I garnered in two years before that show, I got to use.
And I got to be like, well, we’re done. A couple of the guys of the band that I was in, I was getting all these red flags from that I shouldn’t be in it anymore. I was like, well, that’s it. If you’re gonna side with that. And it was very cut and dry and there was something very empowering about that. But even when you lose the unhealthiest or even unsupportive people that have been a regular extent in your life, there’s still a grieving. So, I went through that. But then I also had a strength of character that I started to see the thing that I went through, to observe it politically.
Angela Abide:
Earlier when I said, I think it’s everybody’s duty and responsibility to sort of die to themselves and discover your essence. And what it is that you’re meant to share with the world and give the world. And so, you make that contribution. You pour your life into this work and then you get crucified. And I think this is on your website that you wrote. ‘My political point of view has shifted and become very nuanced. I have observed an environment of outrage addiction and media distortion I have become very leery of. And it would be a betrayal of my own soul not to acknowledge this.’ That was born out of a lot of pain.
Evan Flory-Barnes:
Yes. I had to admit. I mean one, there’s a couple of bits in my show where I talk about and I almost foreshadow the process of being persecuted or going through this heavy pain and crucifixion. There was a part of me when it was going on. There was this feeling that I was entering a club of people who throughout history, have this truth and this power that is uniquely theirs. And that is their soul and their self- expression. And it’s this fork in the road. And one way you go through the motions, there’s a way in which you can do music, play your gig here, gig there. You’re this servant to the music and to the art. And you cannot share what’s truest to you and your heart doing that. You can be a working musician, enjoy playing music and going through the motions of playing the gig, doing the recording session, doing this thing without ever sharing what’s the deepest thing to you. And I think there’s a club where you share that truth and you hit that line where you know it’s going to inspire many. It’s going to irk the demons in others. And you sign up for the club. I feel like I had that moment like, okay, I’ve joined the club. Part of what I was scared of was, not being that person that offends a sensibility in others. Because I was being a nice guy, the good man, the nice boy, whatever.
Angela Abide:
This trial by fire has delivered you, right? There’s a couple of things I want to read here. One thing that you said on your Instagram is, the nice spiritual good boy, you’re going to put him aside and not be afraid of your shadow side which is a real troublemaker. And then you had this hilarious clip of Ric Flair saying, “I’m going to be obnoxious, overbearing and I’m going to make you love it.” Those are both kind of
funny but the one that really got to my feelings, that got me emotionally, was you singing ‘The Reckoning’. The words are, “I lovingly refuse I’m not going to slander you.” Oh, my goodness. And you said, “You can claim your story in lieu of the mob. I lovingly refuse to be defined by the pain and shame of the age.” It’s powerful.
Evan Flory-Barnes:
Yes. Thank you for that. I wrote that song right after all that stuff happened. There’s a first part to that song and it says, “You called me an abuser. And a lie was bought into. And through the pain, hurt and heartache, all I wanted was to love, hold and honor you. You called me a monster, more Dracula than Grover. But if I was as sweet as Elmo, you would not know. Because you cannot see none of the best of me.” And then it frames the source of the pain that is creating the behavior. So it’s like, “If I could go back in time to that child you were, if she could cry on my shoulder, I would encourage her sweetness and mould it into genius. But she can’t hear you over her banshee screams. You say I was your great love but how could that be true? Perhaps you knew that my love was unconditional. And could hold the worst parts of you. If I could sing you a song straight to your soul destroying all the pain from your heart.” And then it goes to the ‘I lovingly refuse’ part.
Angela Abide:
You can’t see me because we’re not using cameras. But when you were going through those words, I actually had my face in my hands. That’s what I tell people a lot of times is try to see the little girl or the little boy and this person that you’re dealing. See if you can minister to that. And sometimes it’s not possible. The metal’s been in the microwave for too long. It’s just not possible to get there. It’s really beautiful. Thank you for sharing that.
Evan Flory-Barnes:
Thank you. In some ways, it’s like the reclaiming of something essential, more and more as I deepen and dive in. I can feel the strength. I can feel the conviction that’s come from that. I can feel that age-old soul question like, you want to do this? This is what you want to do, right? Here’s you. The dream of touching people’s hearts, moving people, inspiring people. Something I always wanted to do. They’re about to say things that are not true and are complete distortion and misrepresentation. And it’s going to be turned up on blast. And what you’re going to have is yourself. It’s going to hurt. It’s going to prune. But you’re going to stand in yourself and sure enough that’s what happened.
Angela Abide:
What you just described is all the conditioning, all the lies we’ve ever been told, all the layers and layers, it has to be burned off. You went through the fire and you rose from the ashes in this new life, this authentic life, this authentic self. It cost you something. That’s the whole point of it. We have to meet in the middle. And in the middle, the only way to see each other is as a fellow living being and to get to that point where I’m seeing the life that you’re offering. And that becomes the most important thing. Not any other label or thing that the world is trying to convince us that’s important. I wonder if what you’re saying is for people who are still sort of asleep or they’re kind of having a hard time understanding that they have to zoom out and start to question everything. It’s going to necessitate a walk in the desert. It’s going to be dry and barren and you’re going to lose people. But I feel like what you’re saying is it’s still worth it to reclaim your life and be authentic.
Evan Flory-Barnes:
Yeah, absolutely. And now there’s this other call that’s coming forward. I’m telling this draw to all the stuff that all my old friends used to say I was evil. But through that, I’ve been writing a lot of songs. And I wrote a lot of songs during that period. Really heal and hold this child, that I’ve been aware of this period that gives more power to the cynical, the negative, the dismissive and befriends it. And then in befriending it, loses himself. And the love that he comes into the world with, I’ve been watching that little self not feel afraid of conflict anymore. Because now I feel rooted in me.
Angela Abide:
That goes back to something else I saw that you wrote about, your voice must flow you. You’re just singing with all your might. You have to learn how to use your voice without fear. When you finally tap into that authentic self, it still takes a little while to get the courage to let it out.
Evan Flory-Barnes:
Yeah, it’s been a strange thing to observe as I continue to just do the work to feel and trust my voice. It all aligns. You go to a point where it’s like, look, sometimes people can hear what they can hear. But I was not afraid to press my voice. It’s almost like they were not even considering the nuance, the humanity. It’s like a script.
Angela Abide:
The talking points.
Evan Flory-Barnes:
Yes, watching people become parrots of a script of these talking points, to the point where they don’t even consider. I think one of the things that’s been a growth spot for me is to want to just not engage. I can feel that they’re these talking points. It’s like a waste of energy and time.
Angela Abide:
It’s going to be an energy drain with no real payoff.
Evan Flory-Barnes:
Yes, these last couple of years I felt like this new voice has been developing and refining itself.
Angela Abide:
When I was going through your content, it almost seemed like you had the matrix moment when you realized that everything you weren’t being told was true. And that kind of came at the Grammy’s. And I wondered if you could tell that story.
Evan Flory-Barnes:
Yes. By 2014, I was in a group that was involved in making the Macklemore album. And we went down to the Grammy’s. It was an enjoyable experience. It felt good to be there. One of the things that I noticed was that even the after party with Macklemore was like a family hang. It was a lot of these people from Seattle and it was people I came up with. It had this kind of chill. It was like boxes of pizza and just people hanging out. It was a chill hang. It wasn’t like a big deal. But I remember coming home and then seeing this article somebody posted. All my friends were sharing about Lorde. How Lorde gave this epic empowered woman speech in the middle of the Grammy’s. And they didn’t air it on TV. Their TV is cut off during the speech. Because she said such a powerful message and they weren’t ready to hear it. So, I saw this article. And I was like, I was there and this didn’t happen. And what I saw was a very humble, grateful and shy young woman who was overwhelmed and moved by the success that she had that year. There was no dramatic speech. And yet I’m watching all these friends of mine share this article as if this really happened. I was like this is troublesome. I remember being aware of the fake article sites and humorous article sites. And sometimes you share things but this felt different. This felt like a foreshadowing. This many people can buy into this thing that seems like a powerful story to the point that they can buy into anything.
Angela Abide:
Yeah. That was kind of your moment where it broke open and you started to question things more.
Evan Flory-Barnes:
There was a questioning but I started to give it a skeptical eye. Signs of things kind of breaking apart and shifting were happening then. But it was more subtle back then. But I definitely noticed. I was watching all these narratives that just locked people into the lowest common denominator. I’m like, what is this proto-cancel culture?
Angela Abide:
I’m really concerned about the division. The people who are served by division or the people whose job security depends on power. You wonder why are we so divided? Why are we cultivating such division? One thing that you said is fear, outrage and the need to protect our image have all been used to compromise our liberty, our self- expression and our own sovereign intuition. It feels like there has been a con to condemn those who question narratives. It’s scary in a way because if you want to break out of the mould, if you want to break out of the pack, it will involve some death. Maybe relationships or maybe to your ideals. But just like those people you were saying before when you were in that thread, all they know are talking points. And if you’re willing to get out of your ego and go deeper and start to really allow yourself to see and question everything, that’s when you can really be free. That’s kind of been your journey.
Evan Flory-Barnes:
Yes. One of the songs that I put out a year and a half ago, the title is called ‘I’m Out’. So, I go and meet my friends at this bar and I’m talking to them about the situation. A dear friend of mine throws up his hands and he’s like, “I’m out.” And it stood out as a moment, like a point of demarcation. There’s a line in that song, “When you have no one to let yourself, be free.” Someday I’ll do this. One day I’ll do this. Just starting that endeavor of like, okay, I’m choosing to be free right now. I’m choosing to express myself and express what it is I have to express right now you. I always remember having this sort of, I don’t know, you want to call it Kum ba yah image in my mind of everybody being together in this one kind of way. One of the things that gives me hope about a mind virus is that I really feel like you can be. I mean I had the experience of some way being shook. We all have unique perspectives and that’s a beautiful and profound thing. But there’s a difference between individuals
having their unique perspectives and a toxic mind virus that divides people and plays off of the vision in people. And my hope is that you can be shaking out the spell. Almost like you go so far into the mind virus culting energy that there’s a moment that happens where it’s like an instant snap. There’s an eeriness to the division.
Angela Abide:
I agree. The bottom line is that love allows. I can allow you to be wrong in my presence. I can hold the space for you. You can hold the space for me to be offensive and then we just love. And we tell each other. We’re impeccable with our word. And we learn and grow. Because we’re free to make mistakes and free to overlook things. Like you said, there’s something so sinister about this thought policing. Making everyone the same and not allowing people to express themselves. Well, I listened to the song ‘I’m out’, and I really like it.
Evan Flory-Barnes:
Thank you.
Angela Abide:
I encourage everybody to listen to it. Thank you so much for joining me today.
Evan Flory-Barnes:
Oh, my pleasure. Thank you, Angela.
Angela Abide:
Would you like to tell people where they can get in touch with you or follow you?
Evan Flory-Barnes:
They can do that on Instagram @evflorybarnes. And you can also go to my website which is allthingsefb.com. And check out the song ‘Paradise’.
Angela Abide:
That’s a really meditative piece. It’s really beautiful.
Evan Flory-Barnes:
Thank you. And you can go to YouTube and enter ‘Evan Flory-Barnes I’m out’ and check it out. If you want to purchase it right away, you can do that at your favorite online retailer. Or if you want to get the funds to me directly, Bandcamp is a good way.
Angela Abide:
Well, it sure is nice to meet you. And thank you for sharing yourself here. I hope we can talk again soon.
Evan Flory-Barnes:
Nice to meet you. Yes, indeed. I hope so as well. It’s been very enjoyable. Thank you.