Jye and Angela discuss the importance of unity as the highest good; for relationships and for society. “The country is in a crisis moment, we won’t be the same after this. We have the option: are we going to grow towards life or are we going to keep fighting amongst ourselves?” Also discussed, was the importance of maintaining curiosity: “If we don’t…keep wondering, and keep searching for the truth, we are going to be divided, be driven far apart, and stagnate. In the end, we’ll become a casualty to our lack of union.” United we stand, divided we fall.
Hello, and welcome to The Deepening Place. I’m here today with Jye. How are you doing?
I’m doing pretty okay today. How about you?
Yeah, are you, one thing I’m noticing, like in my sessions is people are just done, like put a fork in it. Let’s let’s be done with this. Are you kind of feeling that?
I am definitely feeling that today. I took a nap for the first time in ages and that means I’m really tired.
Yeah. So what’s, what’s been going on with you. What are you seeing out in your world?
I’m seeing families spending a lot more time together out of necessity. And in that there’s been a lot of exploration around what’s the relationship between me and my child. And I’m seeing this mostly through tutoring clients, but also through just friends with kids, you know, the kids I live near and the families that live near and I’m seeing families want to, I guess, close or cross a bridge, that may not have been crossed as a way to say it, or just deepen their connection with their child. I’m seeing that a lot. And there’s a story that’s sort of been at the top of my head and kind of the talk like I guess, Shoptalk, I have a new student and this student, you know, he’s got a, he’s got a successful family. His dad’s a professor and owns what they call a world school.
And this kid is one of the most disconnected I’ve ever had. And I find it’s kind of ironic. He’s this kid is 15 and a few months ago, he, uh, stole his parent’s car, flipped. It hurt some people inside of it, tore up a neighborhood skipped school for like a whole semester. Just a lot of things that meant he was really, really disconnected. His family reached out because of someone else. And I’ve been working with him for about three weeks. Now, the whole, the dynamics of them are changing as it just in the three weeks. I’ve known them and been working with him and it’s reflected a lot of what people I don’t work with, you know, just friends, um, have been known with their families. So they’ve, they’ve really, they’re really taking the time to have me listen to him and guide him in his own way.
Instead of having sort of like a harsher, you can have a much harsher reaction they’ve had by far, but they haven’t, they’ve kind of stepped back and found someone like myself on a service like this that allows them to connect to, as I’ve been just seeing that more, some families I’m not working with right now, because their priority isn’t the online school is just hanging out with their child during the day. I’ve seen a lot more of that. Family’s trying to reunite engage in a way maybe they have an ever or having a long time.
So you with this kid, are you, you kind of like a mediator, like, are you trying to bridge the gap between him and his family or is it mostly just between you and the kid or
It’s mostly between myself and the kid, the gap with his family is that they’re very, uh, in his culture, he’s a different culture than mine and his culture, It’s very much like…for example, his grandfather schedules the sessions. And then, you know, I talked to his dad separately from that and his grandfather was pretty on top of him. I mean, literally over his shoulder for the first few times. And we finally had a conversation with the student in front of his grandfather and his dad while they were in the room. And I asked him, do they, does that make you uncomfortable? How does it, we started to explore what that’s like, and that would have been maybe two weeks ago. And now we’re at the point where their relationship is better because they don’t hover over him so much. And they’re trusting him to handle his life in a way that he needs to. So it’s really about the student, but it does go back into some of those family dynamics.
So were they historically a lot more strict with him
Thoroughly strict, had a lot of expectations, very heavy expectations as well, is that, you know, his dad’s, his father’s school has a new curriculum that’s based around his son, the student I’m working with. Um, so the expectations have been very high.
Yeah. So is he kind of like the golden child that had all these expectations and now he’s kind of like rebelling against that?
I think so. You know, um, I won’t say his name here, but his name has a powerful meaning and in India, which is his culture and he’s plastered all over, you know, this, this curriculum is really world reaching curriculum. Yeah. So he can read that and he’s definitely completely not engaged with it.
That is so interesting. I just did a video for my Instagram. And it was on the balance of the energy between the great mother and the great father and the great father being structure and order and the great mother being nurture and care. And so when, when the energy gets off balance, if there’s too much structure and order, there’s always a pushback and kind of this rebellion that leads to chaos. So it kind of makes sense that he’s pulling away. And when he pulled away from structure and order like that, you sometimes have the undesirable effect of falling off into chaos.
That sounds to the T like this young man’s experience, clearly a case of pretty extreme rebelling,
Young men, especially what he’s really saying. He doesn’t maybe even know how to say it, but what he’s really desiring is to have his life and maybe his parents or his father is not, not ready to give it. And so he’s feeling like he has to take it by force in some way, which
Yeah. And for me, the most powerful part is that that cultural standard, you know, I know his family is not the only family to operate that way, but they were willing to challenge that is clearly, you know, their business, whatever his family it’s generational based. And they work with other families that operate, I would assume virtually identical. And they’ve been willing to challenge that just so he can heal or stop plugged into so much of that chaos.
You saying that they’re kind of like negotiating the deal with him to give him some autonomy or say so
Very much so. Yes, very much so. They’ve my service is very much that for, for students, it’s a bridge between sort of what you were saying, like kind of controlling the child and sort of steering their direction and taking that sort of the driver’s seat away from the parent and putting the child there. Um, and that’s, that’s the transition try to help ease. And that’s what they’re expecting. That’s what we’ve been doing
Really beautiful. I hope that that works out well for them because you know, a lot of people just double down on the structure and order side and become more tyrannical. These are the rules. And as long as you’re here, you’re going to abide by them. And sometimes that can buy you a fragile peace, but ultimately that, that pushback, that rebellion will, will happen. It might be when they go away to school or whatever, but allowing him to ease into taking some ownership of his life and some making some choices, hopefully it’ll be a more peaceful, peaceful time when he does need to leave the house when there’s time for him to go. So we set up to do that.
Yes. And it ties into something you said that we have covered in earlier episodes. Um, there being a family business, a generational family business, um, the phrase divided we fall, I believe is what you brought up and for them, I think that’s, what’s really at the heart of it for the, for this kid to still be involved in their family. I think that’s really what it is, you know? Um, cause that’s sort of the backbone for them, you know, a family business, all these, all these sorts of things. What does it mean if you know, the, the next heir can’t find a place in this, you know, the next, the next child in line,
Wow, that’s super powerful. That’s a really great archetypal image because the great father has to be open to the son, the younger person, it’s like how a culture progresses and when there’s too much lock down or lock in and say like in a communist country where they’re not, they’re not open to any kind of change or new life. Things become stagnant and it always falls apart. So it’s really interesting that he is cultivating this proper relationship with the younger generation, because if you’re not willing to bend at all, it you’ll lose it. It’ll go away from you. But if you are open and then it can become this exchange between wisdom and new knowledge, that is mutually beneficial to both of them. Yeah. So that’s cool story.
Hmm. Next it’s pretty positive with him. And that’s just generally what I’ve been noticing. Other families reflecting that same revelation in their own different ways. It’s just been a story at the top of my mind.
I like it because I wanted to talk about, you know, we did a couple of episodes ago, an episode called extreme belief and I think I’m just getting more and more annoyed about it. And so I thought, maybe I tell you how annoyed I am today. Let us know. Yeah. It feels like righteous indignation. And it really does relate to the story that you just told because our extremes of belief keep us separated. Say, I mean, the easy one is like the far left and the far right. Our absolute, inability to make any kind of concessions. Like you were just talking about with this family are pulling us further and further apart that phrase you, you said divided, we fall. I’m really concerned that that we could be going in that direction.
Yeah. That we could be.
Yeah. Like I wrote a couple of things down, one of our founding fathers that I’d never heard of before, but I was looking up the phrase United We Stand and it was credited to a man named John Dickinson. Who’s evidently a founding father. I had not heard of him, but he wrote a song called the Liberty song. And that was the first known use of that phrase United We Stand and that’s in a lot of mottoes around the country, but there’s another E Pluribus Unum out of many one the Latin phrase. But this idea of, you know, we have to stick together. We have, well, you know what? We also had an episode on what was it? Our greatest sin is our refusal to see. And the greatest consequence is a lack of unity. This idea is like scattered throughout our history.
It is. Um, and to your point, you think we’re headed towards that direction in my, yeah, my experience. I’m definitely seeing that, but I do have a hopeful side as well. I’m not sure about you. Um, now that the, now the Texas is turning back on, however, however it’s stated when they say reopening Texas.
Oh yeah. We’re about to go into like phase one reopening,
I believe so. Yes. Yes. Phase one reopening. But I’ve seen, I’ve seen on certain Facebook groups that I’ve just watched conversations. I’ve seen unity in there around this reopening that normally a lot of COVID posts and some of these groups are just complete is it’s just crossfire. Right. And now I see a lot of unity in terms of whether it’s one side by, Hey, I believe a lot of us should, Oh, let’s go with the reopening. I hope it works. Or some groups or there’s a whole lot of unity around. No, I don’t think it’s time it as a community. I think I’d rather keep everyone safe. I was not expecting something like a reopening to sort of calm down some of these Facebook groups. But, uh, it has been the general sort of consensus posting has been. We should all maybe think about doing the same thing just as a people. Um, and it’s been pretty cool to watch
That’s cool, life working together.
Yeah. And it, the people sort of thinking as a community, not a disrespect to the government, but sort of, this is our reality, our, and someone that distant may not have the best judgment. So let’s just make the decision on our own, whatever that is. That is what I’m seeing.
Yeah. I like it. That’s kinda like in his press briefing just recently I saw Donald Trump was asked about, I don’t know if you saw this, but like Michigan, I think Minnesota, Ohio, and even Austin, Texas had demonstrations and protests this week about, you know, getting everybody back to work and different things like that. And Trump was kind of criticized for supporting that. He’d sent out some tweets supporting those people that were protesting. And he said, no, the people have the right to protest if they feel like something’s unfair. And so he said, I feel like some of the governors maybe have overstepped their bounds and it’s absolutely appropriate for people to speak out against that. If they feel like their rights are being infringed on. I kind of, I liked that idea that it is up to the people to stand together and say, we don’t like this and that’s enough. And it is, we, the people, the government for the people, by the people we forget about that sometimes. So if the government’s overstepping, it is absolutely our duty. And so I like what you’re saying about the attitude of, okay, let’s work together and see if we can get this done.
You know, I did see, uh, yeah, I caught a few of those rallies and I did, I did catch some of what, um, Donald Trump said about the governors. I wasn’t going to go rally, but I’m glad people are rallying in that sense. If they feel that way, what I’m not glad about is there’s definitely a division. There are definitely pockets of people on my Facebook feed, that are like arrest them all matter of fact, you know, get the military out there. Don’t ever let it happen. It’s like, have you not seen The Hunger Games? I don’t want to live in that. That’s crazy. What are you? Its their choice, if they want to be in a big huddle, let people be in a big huddle. They’re not excited about seeing people rebel against that.
A lot of tattletales and the, the tattletales always reach out to the government, always make it go away, make it stop, make them behave.
Yeah. It’s a total lack of accountability in that, you know, if you want to counter protest alright, go do that. You also show up not a fan of that. Just this morning we went to HEB and I saw someone getting a fine for not having their mask on like the coronavirus mask or whatever. I didn’t think that was a thing. And I mean, there were multiple police cars were just a guy, just a person without a mask on. And as soon as he walked out of the store and got a fine, I assume, or a lot of police around him.
Yeah. That’s interesting. I heard someone else say that they were at the grocery store and someone showed up without a mask and they just turned them away and said, you can’t come in here without a mask. I think that’s kind of reasonable assess the rule, but to call the police and with these kind of crazy,
Well, just tell the guy don’t come in or you’re not welcome here, escort or out. You called them. That’s exactly what I said. I’m like, who called the police for this? The police. Wasn’t a fan of seeing that I can definitely get the disagreement from the store’s perspective, but goodness gracious, the cops?
Yeah. So the thing about the divided we fall, the truth is we need each other. It’s almost like that tension. And that flow between the great mother and the great father. You can’t have just one. And if you get too far over into the great mother’s side, you fall over into chaos. And then if you overcorrect too much and go the other way, it becomes tyranny. So too much structure and order, we really need each other. I don’t remember this in my whole life. This having to be so against, we are so against each other. It’s not, Hey, I’m I’m for this. And these are the reasons why we are against the other side. And I think that’s a really, really dangerous way to go about it because eventually we do break off into the extremes of belief.
Uh, sorry. I got lost on that one phrase you said there, it really took my brain away. Um, not that I love that. No. Um, I’ve really never phrases that way in terms of, it’s not that people are standing on their beliefs, they’re against someone else’s I don’t know why that resonates so much. That is so true. Wow. That’s, that’s a really harmful way to phrase the phrase, your opinion, to phrase your experience.
I think that’s the righteous indignation rising up in me is that we are so badly behaved. You can’t be against, you have to be for. It starts with you, you get reconciled, you find out what your values are and what’s true for you. And then that spreads out to the next person and then the next, and then that’s how the world is healed. But we have all these people now that in the extreme belief we’ve talked about, you’re either in complete fear. And so you’re running around trying to figure out all the answers or you’ve already decided, and you’ve made a judgment about it. And either way, you’re not useful because you’re not open to allowing any new information in. Just like we talked about with, with the son and father earlier, when you don’t allow any new information in, then you don’t allow any new life in and then you just stagnate in your belief.
The country’s in a crisis moment. Uh, we won’t be the same after this. And I think we really have the option of, are we going to grow toward life and have a golden vision? Or are we going to keep, keep fighting amongst ourselves? I don’t think we really have the luxury to say, I don’t believe that anymore. I’m really tired of hearing people say, Oh, I don’t believe that. And just dismissing it. Belief is the lazy man’s version of the truth.
I like that belief is budget truth.
Yeah. Like, okay, that sounds good to me. I’m gonna go with that group. And they hand you their talking points. You know, if I say something like, well, I think, and then they get inflamed and they start reciting the talking points.
I had that thought early. I had a thought about this earlier today, maybe yesterday in a different context, but about belief versus truth. Yes. That’s been very apparent, uh, has been very apparent. Some people operate more on beliefs than trying to pursue the truth. I’ve just been noticing that. Yeah. Belief versus truth. I think it shows up in a lot of different spaces. And how are you saying you’ve seen it kind of popping up,
Especially in the political realm. I go to this community coffee, but it’s just a group of people that we meet and we talk about what’s going on in Austin and what’s important to us and even on a, on a national level, but one day I walked in and there was a lady there that I had never had never met before. As soon as I sat down, she said, Oh, are you an activist? Like, she was really excited. You know, I don’t even know this person. Right. She doesn’t know me. She doesn’t know who I am, but just kind of being like proud to be an activist. And she had the talking points and what people liked that they there’s nothing deeper than the talking points. Because if you try to say something that just leads to learning or knowledge or whatever, and I don’t respond well to the talking points, it just ended in anger. And it did that day because I didn’t agree with all the talking points.
Really the analogy that I prefer is the wrestling mat. Like, Hey, you want to go?
Let’s figure this out.
Yeah. So I have something that I think might be true and you have something that you think might be true and let’s discuss it. Let’s, let’s dig down. And, uh, hopefully we both walk away knowing a little bit more than we did when we started. It’s not about being right or wrong. Yes. Yes.
And for me, it’s, it’s shown up personally in coronavirus. Like, um, so my mom tested positive. Well, I don’t know, a few weeks ago now at this point. And she tested positive for it after, after it already passed her system, right. She had already been sick and found out retroactively. She went and got tested because she felt sick. She was in bed for a few days, but I was on like a video call with some of my friends were talking about, you know, they’re scared of based in fear around it and getting it. There’s a fear around contracting it or something. I’m kind of like, believe you need, it was really horrendous or whatever the case. I was like, no, I’m, I’m personally not super afraid. My mom has had it already. And she made it. She is in like the critical everything about it.
She just had surgery. She’s 65. I was like, no, I’m, it’s not that I disagree with what you’re saying. Just my experience so far has been, that it’s not doom and gloom when it does show up in so many words, but it was sort of a, I believe sort of meets the truth like my truth. You know, I had an experience with it already and it wasn’t receptive. It wasn’t a negative conversation. We did not walk away anger from each other at all. It was one of them understanding, but it, it does resonate with what you’re talking about with someone kind of showing up and saying, I’m an activist. Or however that woman approached you,
You were sharing, it’s not a label. You weren’t, you weren’t sharing some, you know, obscure label within you were saying, Hey, I have a perspective on that. That’s from my real life. Would you like to hear it? And they said, yes, please share. And you did. And they’re like, okay. Yeah, we understand there’s a little bit better now. And that’s, that’s kinda how it’s supposed to work.
Yeah. It’s um, remarkably simple, but still somehow easy to miss,
Just being open to someone else’s perspective and allowing that to kind of inform you, it doesn’t, you don’t have to feel threatened about your belief.
I think your experience as well. Yeah. Like just hear someone else’s experience. And for me sometimes it’s been, well, that’s not mine, but I understand how our truth in my life might actually is impacted by your truth as well.
Yeah. I’ve heard people say before that, you know, no matter who you sit down with, even if it’s like a hardened criminal in jail, if you were able to sit down with them and have a conversation with them, you might not walk away agreeing with them or feeling like you have anything in common with them. But most of the time you’ll have an aha moment. When you can get their perspective, you understand why they are the way they are. Even that leads more toward union instead of demonizing that person or believing that you have nothing to learn from them.
And that definitely ties right back to the story for me about the student I shared earlier, he has a value, of course, he’s acting, you know, that student’s acting out, but he, um, his father and grandfather see some value in his perspective now in a lot of ways. And they’re definitely mending that.
Yeah. I love that story. That’s awesome that they’re still working together.
It’s cool. Yeah. It has been a good experience.
I had a few ideas about how we can work together as a country. What are you thinking? First of all, people have to identify the ways they’re being bullied into not thinking. And it’s really subtle. Some of those things are, if you say, Hey, I heard there’s an area, 51, there actually might be aliens. You know, I’m just using a random example. Sure. And somebody labels it, conspiracy theory. That’s a way people bully you into stop thinking, anytime you say, Hey, what about China? Or what about Bill Gates? Or what about this, that or the other? And someone says, Oh, that’s a conspiracy theory. If it stops you from thinking that’s a red flag, I think everybody should research and find information on topics that seem important to them or peak their interest. The other one is just in the religious realm. When I was in the Catholic church, we would, if somebody wanted to question something or if they said, Oh, I’m not sure about that particular part of the belief system, someone would say, Oh, you’re a cafeteria Catholic. You can’t pick and choose it’s all or nothing. Did you ever hear that phrase, cafeteria?
I have not heard cafeteria Catholic. No,
Like you can’t just pick the meat and potatoes. You gotta have the whole tray.
It was not Piccadilly’s. Gotcha.
And there’s another religious phrase, a heretic or blasphemous people shy away or back away from their curiosity because they don’t want to be known as a heretic or they don’t want to be blasphemous. A current one that’s really big right now is the orange man bad theory. If I say to someone, Hey, I think Donald Trump is showing some good leadership in handling this Coronavirus. And then they come back with orange man bad. And then that breaks the ability for us to have a conversation.
But did you come up with the orange man bad?
I’m sure I did not, but I’ll take credit for it,
But all jokes aside. Yeah. To your point, absolutely. A hundred percent. Yes. I’m in circles where orange man bad is the absolute law and that’s dangerous, dangerous. No, it’s so dangerous. Cause it’s, it goes back to the divided. We fall. I’ve said this so many times and it’s not me personally. It doesn’t really matter. But in the black community, there’s a strong consensus of like you support Donald Trump. Something’s wrong. I think the most prominent example is when Kanye West showed his support early on. And if he didn’t follow it there. So like that was a big conversation. And so fast forward to now on any sort of group or space, that’s still does the status quo, orange man bad. But the reality is there’s a lot of people from that very community who do not believe in orange man bad. And so you have these divisions in already marginalized communities and I’m sure it’s not just the black community. It is the one I have access to, to me that is terrifying seeing that some of those spaces I mentioned early, or I finally saw some unity. Those are some of those same spaces, um, where people were previously just fighting nonstop. Finally, there’s some sort of unity, um, way less of the orange, all of that orange man bad sort of thing.
Now you will not be able to get it out of your head. As humans. Curiosity is our superpower. When we can allow ourselves to move beyond fear and judgment, we drop down into this deeper place. And I believe that’s like our, you know, where we get great information. Like what I mean by that is like you hear stories of Einstein or maybe Nikola Tesla. And they would work and work and work and work and work. And then they would just have to take a break cause their brain was too full and they would go for a walk. And it was a lot of times on those walks or breaks that they would, it would finally all come together for them. That’s based in that curiosity, I’m not relying so much on intaking knowledge, but I’m letting it drop down to a place where I can just let it swirl with all that’s known and be curious about it and use my imagination to come up with solutions. And so when we’re bullied into stopping that curiosity and we’re kind of forced to pick a side or pick a belief, we kind of cut ourselves off from that, that super power that we have our curiosity.
That’s great. Kind of you’re saying earlier between the balance masculine, feminine, I’m not sure how it relates, but to me, I see the curiosity on the same sort of scale, like the absence and curiosity, if it is our super power, then not, not using it as also equally as dangerous shoving that side of things off, which is, I think what you’re saying too,
To be stagnant. If you’re not curious another thing, ultimately what w what it does. And I see this in couples like couples counseling. So if that great father and great mother energy is on like that infinity symbol for people who can’t see me swirling my finger around in the air, it’s like the sideways figure eight, that infinity symbol. And what happens is there’s a tiny point in the middle where the union is, and it’s really fragile if you think about the structure, but what happens when people start reversing that flow and going their own way and they stop considering each other, it just becomes these two circles. And before long they’ve drifted so far apart, there’s no real hope of reconciliation. That curiosity allows you to turn toward each other and allows you to maintain that flow. So that’s why it’s so important on an individual level to get curious within our own heart and our relationships with other people to maintain our curiosity, and also in relationship to people who have different beliefs than us. If we don’t maintain that curiosity and keep wondering, and keep searching for the truth, then we are going to be divided and drift far apart and stagnate. And in the end become a casualty of our lack of union.
Divided. We fall
Divided. We fall. I think we’re falling right now.
I do. I do. Yeah. It’s so ironic to me that a lot of the people who are preaching love and acceptance hate Donald Trump with every fiber of their being. And it’s just bad. It’s just bad energy. It’s bad behavior. And you can’t hold the space for love and hate that collectively is taking us into some bad places. I’m a little concerned. Yeah.
I can see what you see if I can see that. Cause I met a lot of those spaces, I, in those spaces. And I agree with you. I really don’t have words for it yet. I’m not sure how, how Love’s supposed to be an outcome. When you, what’d you say earlier, you kind of use an unionized around this. Isn’t my stance. I’m just against him. You know, I’m against the orange man. I bet a lot of that. I’m not sure how people are reconciling those two in their head that there’s a greater cognitive dissonance happening there. Can’t be comfortable. Yeah. Like really blind, really blind. And it’s not I’m I find myself curious about, what’s going to make people curious to start breeding these gaps.
Uh, well the answer to that is my friend Richard Rohr I’ve quoted before. I think I’ve actually used this quote before transformation comes through. Great love a great suffering. We get to choose.
Well there you have it.
So where are going to keep going toward division break apart, civil war, socialism, whatever, you know, we’ll go through some great suffering. Get back on track again. Maybe in a few hundred years, we could also make the choice to turn toward each other and meet in the middle and have a love revolution. I’m hoping for that one.
Likewise. I not like to sing anymore. It’s just enough. The world needs to come into that space. And more than the world, the U S definitely has to come out of this. We’re always sort of combative culture. I’m glad we have sovereignty and freedom here, but right now we’re sort of manipulating it. Maybe you said it to me, it’s sort of putting that reality in front of people. We’re not immune. We’re not, we’re not immune to grief and strife and warfare and all those things. In fact, we know that’s how this place was born and lived for a long time. So I think putting that reality in front of people in a loving way.
Yep. Hopefully we’ll make that transition before it’s too late
For us too late. Yep. I think we’ve got a while though. Fortunately, everyone got locked up at home, so the I’m smart. So it’s going to be pretty hard to get out and fight your nature at this point.
Although today actually is the anniversary of Paul Revere’s ride. Yep. And that is a great example of people joining together to fight a common enemy. And for, for us, I think that common enemy is judgment and fear. So hopefully this crisis of the virus will, will lead us to that place where we can see each other again.
And like you said, or like we talked about earlier, just starting at home too. It’s that simple. That’s right.
Well, thank you, Jye.
Okay. Thank you as always.
Yeah. Well, we’ll talk soon. Talk to you soon. Bye.